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senso42
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 5:42:49 AM
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ichisan wrote:
I would caution everyone who is contemplating taking l-arginine to use a 4-weeks-on/1-week-off cycle. L-arginine stops being effective after a while and requires a break period.

Do a search on Google to learn about the powerful angiogenic properties of l-arginine.


hi louis
which dose do you recommand?
Do you know other molecules wich promotes angenine?
Is there a better method of administration than orally ( like for pea )with microgranules for example
senso42
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 5:45:47 AM
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Olly
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 8:28:28 AM

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Looking to get a better or clearer understanding of the many confusing processes involved I have gone back through the postings and online documents today.

There are still some confusing results with questions needing answering....

There seems to be two partially separate processes at work concerning the ANG gene and angiogenin which is produced by ANG or at least how they have been described?

On one hand we have specific mutations in the ANG gene, most of which cause loss of function but not all.

Reminder:
'What is the normal function of the ANG gene?
The ANG gene provides instructions for making a protein called angiogenin '

Also the ANG gene has to be in the right place to function correctly.................

'We next examined whether these mutant ANG undergo nuclear translocation, another essential requirement for mediating angiogenesis
Some of the mutations retained the ability to undergo nuclear translocation others could not.'

(A merge of the two panels show that WT and K17I ANG are able to translocate to the nucleus, but that S28N and P112L ANG cannot. Because nuclear translocation is essential for ANG to induce angiogenesis, S28N and P112L are unlikely to be angiogenic even though they retain 14 and 9%, respectively, of the ribonucleolytic activity .)

In the above it looks like ANG has to be able to translocate to the nucleus but if mutations S28N and P112L ANG cannot then they would not be able to help with angiogenesis.

Does that mean that increasing the product of the ANG gene (angiogenin) would not help those with these specific mutations as the ANG gene is not in the right location?
...................

Secondary effect of ANG gene?

The role of ANG in neuroprotection probably extends beyond its effect on endothelial cells, as significant immunostaining of ANG was observed in ventral horn motor neurons of both normal human fetal and adult spinal cords.

We have recently shown that ANG may have functions independent of angiogenesis, as it is involved more broadly in ribosomal biogenesis. ANG binds to the promoter region of rDNA and stimulates rRNA transcription.

Looking at the above in ribosomal biogenesis does ANG gene alone or the product of ANG (angiogenin) do this after ANG is bound to the promoter region of rDNA?

Does angiogenin stimulate rRNA transcription or does ANG have to bind first followed by angiogenin release?

As such, ANG function in motor neurons may be related to ribosomal biogenesis and protein translation.
A defect in this pathway, as a consequence of ANG mutation in ALS, may lead to insufficient synthesis of ribosomes, thereby affecting motor neuron viability. Efforts to create and characterize ANG transgenic and knockout mice and to determine the expression and function of ANG in motor neurons and glia cells are under way.

Mechanistic studies indicate that ANG undergoes nuclear translocation in endothelial cells where it binds to the promoter region of rDNA, stimulates rRNA transcription, and is essential for cell proliferation. ANG-mediated rRNA transcription has been shown to be required for angiogenesis induced by vascular endothelial cell growth factor (VEGF), an essential angiogenic protein that has also been implicated in ALS. In a mouse model of ALS, disruption of the promoter element of VEGF results in selective motor neuron degeneration. In SOD1G93A rats, treatment with intraventricular VEGF results in substantially improved motor function, delayed disease onset, and extended survival. In humans, VEGF was shown to be a modifier of ALS by protecting motor neurons from ischemic injury and death. A potential role of ANG in ALS is thus envisioned from its involvement in VEGF-mediated angiogenesis.

Our data suggest that ANG is the first gene in which loss-of-function mutations are documented in ALS patients.

So what are they saying in the above, in plain English.

ANG moves to the nuclear in endothelial cells where it binds a to a region of rDNA which then stimulates rRNA transcription. Vascular endothelial cell growth factor (VEGF) requires ANG rRNA transcription to function correctly to protect neurons. VEGF protects motor neurons from ischemic injury, death and if disrupted motor neurons degenerate.

....................................

Hints that ANG mutations may be involved in protein inclusions?
A K17I mutation in the ANG gene encoding angiogenin has been identified in a case that we previously published as ALS with neuronal intranuclear protein inclusions (Seilhean et al. in Acta Neuropathol 108:81-87, 2004).
These inclusions were immunoreactive for smooth muscle alpha-actin but not for angiogenin. Moreover, they were not labeled by anti-TDP-43 antibodies, while numerous cytoplasmic inclusions immunoreactive for ubiquitin, p62 and TDP-43 were detected in both oligodendrocytes and neurons in various regions of the central nervous system. In addition, expression of smooth muscle alpha-actin was increased in the liver where severe steatosis was observed.

This is the first neuropathological description of a case with an ANG mutation. Angiogenin is known to interact with actin. Like other proteins involved in ALS pathogenesis, such as senataxin, TDP-43 and FUS/TLS, it plays a role in RNA maturation.


Looking at the role of Angiogenin......
There is some confusion in the papers because the following talks of angiogenin moves to the nucleus where it stimulates the production of ribosomal RNA (rRNA) but earlier we had a report from another paper that ANG has to be able to do that same?
This may just be sloppy write up by one of the authors, or by my reading of one of the paper but is confusing?
................................................................

Angiogenin is found in a variety of cells throughout the body and circulates in the bloodstream. When angiogenin binds to receptors on the surface of endothelial cells, it triggers a series of reactions that brings angiogenin inside the cell.

Once inside endothelial cells, angiogenin moves to the nucleus where it stimulates the production of ribosomal RNA (rRNA), a chemical cousin of DNA. Ribosomal RNA is required for assembling protein building blocks (amino acids) into functioning proteins.

Angiogenin stimulates the production of additional ribosomal RNA when there is an increased demand for proteins, such as for the growth and division of endothelial cells. Angiogenin may also be involved in other steps of angiogenesis, such as helping to break down the tissue that surrounds existing blood vessels to allow room for the growth of new blood vessels
Angiogenin is a liver-derived component of normal serum the concentration of which can increase in various disease states and its expression is regulated in vivo in a manner that is characteristic of acute phase proteins (Olson et al, 1998).

In the current work, Li and Hu lay out the biochemical pathway linking angiogenin and apoptosis inducing factor (AIF). AIF is normally located in mitochondria, but when it moves to the nucleus—as it does in ALS model mice (Oh et al., 2006)—it chews up DNA, contributing to apoptosis.
The following indicates that angiogenin stops AIF moving to the nucleus by up regulating Bcl-2 which inhibits caspase-3 ......Therefore giving an explanation of the death or destructive pathway.

Critically is this common in most ALS cases albeit by slightly different but related pathways and the cause of neuron death?

(In addition to angiogenin and AIF, the players include the apoptosis dampener Bcl-2 and the pro-apoptosis proteins caspase-3 and serum polymerase-1 (PARP-1).

The researchers delineate a pathway in which apoptosis normally proceeds from activation of caspase-3, to cleavage of PARP-1, to nuclear translocation of AIF.

Angiogenin alters the situation by upregulating Bcl-2, which inhibits caspase-3 and thus the rest of the downstream pathway. Much of this pathway was already known, noted Piera Pasinelli of Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, but “they really teased out the mechanism by which angiogenin can be anti-apoptotic…in a Bcl-2-dependent manner,” she said.

To study apoptosis, the researchers starved P19 cells of serum. This treatment normally causes PARP-1 cleavage within a few hours and nuclear translocation of AIF by 24. But with angiogenin in the culture media, PARP-1 stayed whole and AIF remained mitochondrial, confirming that angiogenin blocks apoptosis via this pathway. In a previous study, the authors confirmed that angiogenin also prevents activation of caspase-3 (Li et al., 2010).

The researchers already knew Bcl-2 was upregulated by angiogenin (Li et al., 2010), and suspected it would be crucial to angiogenin’s effects. If so, then removing Bcl-2 should allow apoptosis to proceed unhindered, even in the presence of angiogenin. Li used RNA interference to knock down Bcl-2. In the knocked down, serum-starved cell cultures, angiogenin was less effective at preventing caspase-3 activation, PARP-1 cleavage and AIF translocation.)
Notice in the above the researchers said, in the last paragraph, that angiogenin was less effective which implies that it did not totally stop caspase-3 activation so is there another factor at work?

Angiogenin upregulates anti-apoptotic genes, including Bag1, Bcl-2, Hells, Nf-κb and Ripk1, and downregulates pro-apoptotic genes, such as Bak1, Tnf, Tnfr, Traf1 and Trp63.

Knockdown of Bcl-2 largely abolishes the anti-apoptotic activity of angiogenin, whereas the inhibition of Nf-κb activity results in a partial, but significant, inhibition of the protective activity of angiogenin.

Thus, angiogenin prevents stress-induced cell death through both the Bcl-2 and Nf-κb pathways.


From the above it looks like upregulating Bcl-2 and Nf-kb through some other method may also help us besides increasing angiogenin levels?



Into the heart, an air that kills, from yon far country blows.
What are those blue remembered hills, what sphires what farms are those.
That is the land of lost content,I see it shining plain,
The happy highways where I went and cannot come again
HappyPhysicist
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 9:01:11 AM
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Olly wrote:

Notably, only angiogenin gene expression, which promotes both angiogenesis and nitric oxide production (reflected by increased eNOS protein expression in this study), was upregulated.


Wow! Things are starting to fall into place.


If it is done in secret, it is done in vain.
HappyPhysicist
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 9:09:50 AM
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ichisan wrote:

For those who do not already know, I have used the neuro-vascular/ischemia hypothesis to formulate a daily regimen for my wife that promotes angiogenesis and oxygenation. My wife is now entering her 5th month with zero disease progression. And, believe me, she used to be a very fast progressor. Late last year, I and her neurologist thought she had only weeks to live.



Louis,

Well for the last 5 months I have had my most significant progression since before NP001. I noticed a pretty sudden increase in my progression when I started the Paleo diet and started taking large quantities of exactly those foods on the top of the list of anti-angiogenic foods, via a juicer. I attributed that to weight loss but perhaps it was because I was retarding my body's effort to vascularize around dying motor neurons. I ordered the list of supplements you recommended last week and they are starting to come in.

For those who haven't seen Louis's list:

L-Lysine..................2000 mg
L-Arginine................2000 mg
Acetyl-L-Carnitine ...2000 mg
L-Taurine.................2000 mg
L-Glutamine.............2000 mg
Niacin.......................2000 mg
Choline.....................2000 mg

Am I missing anything?

Ben

If it is done in secret, it is done in vain.
MattJ
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 9:28:04 AM

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HappyPhysicist
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 9:42:29 AM
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Olly,

So I see two very distinct possible mechanisms at play with angiogenin:

1: Promotes angiogenesis: i.e., vascularization
2: Prevents apoptosis: i.e., cell death.

So we are not sure which mechanism was at play in the irish study in which they injected the mice with angiogenin (that is what they did isn't it?)


If it is done in secret, it is done in vain.
HappyPhysicist
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 10:56:21 AM
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Nem,

Waiting for your "I told you so."



If it is done in secret, it is done in vain.
HappyPhysicist
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 11:03:31 AM
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For those who can they should consider swimming as a form of exercise in conjunction with these supplements including Arganine. For one thing, as Nem pointed out to me a long time ago, swimming has been shown to be one of the single most effected therapeutics to delay onset and prolong life after onset in the ALS mice.

Quote:
Motoneuron survival is promoted by specific exercise in a mouse model of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis

Abstract

Several studies using transgenic mouse models of familial amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) have reported a life span increase in exercised animals, as long as animals are submitted to a moderate-intensity training protocol. However, the neuroprotective potential of exercise is still questionable. To gain further insight into the cellular basis of the exercise-induced effects in neuroprotection, we compared the efficiency of a swimming-based training, a high-frequency and -amplitude exercise that preferentially recruits the fast motor units, and of a moderate running-based training, that preferentially triggers the slow motor units, in an ALS mouse model. Surprisingly, we found that the swimming-induced benefits sustained the motor function and increased the ALS mouse life span by about 25 days. The magnitude of this beneficial effect is one of the highest among those induced by any therapeutic strategy in this disease. We have shown that, unlike running, swimming significantly delays spinal motoneuron death and, more specifically, the motoneurons of large soma area. Analysis of the muscular phenotype revealed a swimming-induced relative maintenance of the fast phenotype in fast-twitch muscles. Furthermore, the swimming programme preserved astrocyte and oligodendrocyte populations in ALS spinal cord. As a whole, these data are highly suggestive of a causal relationship not only linking motoneuron activation and protection, but also motoneuron protection and the maintenance of the motoneuron surrounding environment. Basically, exercise-induced neuroprotective mechanisms provide an example of the molecular


Link

Quote:
L-arginine supplementation causes additional effects on exercise-induced angiogenesis and VEGF expression in the heart and hind-leg muscles of middle-aged rats.
Abstract
The effects of dietary L-arginine supplementation on exercise-induced angiogenesis and VEGF expression were examined in male middle-aged (12 months old) Wistar rats. Exercise training lasted for six weeks at 20 m/min on a 0% gradient for 10-60 min/day. Rats in the L-arginine-treated groups drank water containing 2.5% L-arginine. According to histochemical identification of the capillary profile, in the soleus muscle the capillary-to-fiber (C:F) ratio showed a significantly greater value in the L-arginine-treated training group than in both the sedentary control and training groups. Training with L-arginine significantly increased the C:F ratio in the subendocardium of the left ventricle, whereas training alone did not. In the plantaris muscle, training with or without L-arginine significantly increased the capillary density, but it did not affect the C:F ratio. A Western blot analysis showed that training with L-arginine significantly increased VEGF protein expression by 2.9-fold in the soleus muscle and by 1.7-fold in the left ventricle, but the increase with training alone was insignificant. The tissue endothelial nitric oxide synthase protein levels were significantly increased in both the soleus (by 1.3-fold) and the left ventricle (by 1.4-fold) only after training with L-arginine supplementation. In the plantaris muscle, these protein levels did not change after either training or L-arginine treatment. The present results suggest that in middle-aged rats, L-arginine administration caused additional effects on exercise-induced angiogenesis by presumably promoting VEGF expression in the hind-leg muscle as well as in the left ventricle.


Link

Again, all roads are leading to angiogenesis. If exercise alone induces angiogenesis, in particular swimming, and L-arginine also induces angiogenesis, and L-arginine boosts exercise induced angiogenesis, then it stands to reason that the superb results of the mouse swimming study could be even better if those mice were fed L-Arginine.

If it is done in secret, it is done in vain.
DeeBee
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 11:15:48 AM

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I suspect the Romans used swimming and mother's milk 2000 years ago to combat neurodegeneration.......

http://www.als.net/forum/yaf_postst47956_Classical-Cures.aspx

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11338348
ImInAwe
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 11:16:45 AM
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HappyPhysicist wrote:




Am I missing anything?



Magnesium (I don't know what specific form he is using).

Daily oxygen therapy.

And no obvious vasoconstrictors.

I'm sure Louis will fill in the specifics.
Nemesis
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 11:33:29 AM

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I am too bogged down in research to have time to make any lengthyor frequent comments.

Angiogenin is a step in the right direction, and I have reasons to hope and believe that we will be seeing results from another study in G93A SOD1 mice in the near future.

However, a problem, just as in the case of VEGF which has been around for years, is how to put it in to clinical practice. Slowing disease e.g.by injections into the spinal canal with a dosing pump is sure superior to dying fast, but it is still a hazzle that is far from optimal or easily accessible as evidenced by VEGF.


Don't just ask what scientists can do to speed up the solution for ALS or when they will do it, instead ask yourself what you can do right now to solve ALS asap.
ichisan
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 3:17:00 PM
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OK, here's my wife's current regimen:

L-Lysine, 1000 mg
L-Arginine, 1000 mg
Acetyl-L-Carnitine, 1000 mg
L-Taurine, 1000 mg
L-Glutamine, 1000 mg
Niacinamide, 1000 mg
Choline, 1000 mg

The above were lowered from 2000 mg after a couple of weeks. In addition, she now takes the following:

Vitamin D, 2000 mg
DHEA, 100 mg
Magnesium citrate, 1000 mg

Vitamin D and Magnesium help with inflammation. Magnesium also promotes vasodilation. DHEA is a precursor of estrogen in women or testosterone in men. It helps with angiogenesis. It is important to stay away from all vasoconstricting substances, anti-anxiety drugs (like Valium), opiate-based pain medicines (e.g., Vicodin), most anti-oxidants and antihistamines.

Oxygen therapy: I think it's important for every PALS to do some form of oxygen therapy. My wife uses an oxygen concentrator for about 4 hours a day during which she maintains her blood oxygen level above 98%.

Louis
senso42
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 3:23:03 PM
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louis
thanks for that!
can you tell me if your wife is on plm?
did she stops pea?
thanks
romain
ImInAwe
Posted: Friday, June 01, 2012 4:11:52 PM
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ichisan wrote:
DHEA is a precursor of estrogen in women or testosterone in men.

Louis


Are you no longer doing estrogen? (and progesterone)
sceptic
Posted: Saturday, June 02, 2012 12:46:14 PM
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is there a difference between Taurine and L-Taurine? Or, for that matter, any of Louis's supplements that begin with the L- prefix and the same supplement without the L-. Many websites seem to use the two almost interchangeably.
Nemesis
Posted: Saturday, June 02, 2012 2:36:03 PM

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sceptic wrote:
is there a difference between Taurine and L-Taurine? Or, for that matter, any of Louis's supplements that begin with the L- prefix and the same supplement without the L-. Many websites seem to use the two almost interchangeably.


There is no difference for practical purposes. The prefix L- and D- refers to that chemical molecules can exist as a left- and right-handed mirror images.

The molecules that exist in living cells are L-isomers and D-isomers may be toxic or have completely different effects.

But no one in their right mind would sell D-taurine for human consumption.


Don't just ask what scientists can do to speed up the solution for ALS or when they will do it, instead ask yourself what you can do right now to solve ALS asap.
ichisan
Posted: Saturday, June 02, 2012 2:57:47 PM
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senso42 wrote:
louis
thanks for that!
can you tell me if your wife is on plm?
did she stops pea?
thanks
romain
She's no longer on PEA. She was on it for 15 days without any significant effect. I don't like PLM because I think it's a messy and hard to use website and I don't think it's worth my time. In my opinion, PLM needs a major redesign. Sorry.
ImInAwe wrote:
Are you no longer doing estrogen? (and progesterone)
She's still taking the prescribed 1 mg of Estradiol and Progesterone everyday. However, she decided to add DHEA because she didn't think the prescription was enough.

Louis

PS. Let me reiterate that l-arginine must be taken in 4-weeks-on/1-week-off cycle.
sceptic
Posted: Saturday, June 02, 2012 7:48:20 PM
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Louis has written:

"OK, here's my wife's current regimen:

L-Lysine, 1000 mg
L-Arginine, 1000 mg
Acetyl-L-Carnitine, 1000 mg
L-Taurine, 1000 mg
L-Glutamine, 1000 mg
Niacinamide, 1000 mg
Choline, 1000 mg

The above were lowered from 2000 mg after a couple of weeks. In addition,
she now takes the following:

Vitamin D, 2000 mg
DHEA, 100 mg
Magnesium citrate, 1000 mg




There are a lot of different forms of choline (choline bitartrate, choline
citrate, CDP choline, phosphatidyl choline). Which form is preferred?

Vitamin D - I assume he meant to say the concentration is 2,000 I.U., not
mg. That's a big difference.

Many articles comment on the combination of lysine and arginine, with lysine
cancelling out the effects of arginine (which we don't want to do). Since
arginine promotes angiogenesis. that is the substance we want. So I'm
suggesting to omit the lysine.



There is a good lysine and arginine food chart here:

http://www.traditionaloven.com/tutorials/l-lysine_amino_acid.html

From www.vitacost.com: "Lysine has an antagonistic relationship with
L-arginine, making it useful in the reduction of arginine levels."


But then this article,
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30&m=2421906, says
"arginine and lysine should be taken concurrently to provide our protein
synthesis mechanism with the needed balance of these two amino acids. It
seems increasing arginine without increasing lysine will slow down protein
synthesis (including heart muscle, antibodies, and enzymes) and aid in
microorganism reproduction."


ichisan
Posted: Saturday, June 02, 2012 9:04:52 PM
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sceptic wrote:
[...]
There are a lot of different forms of choline (choline bitartrate, choline
citrate, CDP choline, phosphatidyl choline). Which form is preferred?
My wife takes choline bitartrate. I have no idea which form is better or whether it makes much of a difference.
Quote:
Vitamin D - I assume he meant to say the concentration is 2,000 I.U., not
mg. That's a big difference.
I meant 2000 I.U. Sorry.
Quote:
Many articles comment on the combination of lysine and arginine, with lysine
cancelling out the effects of arginine (which we don't want to do). Since
arginine promotes angiogenesis. that is the substance we want. So I'm
suggesting to omit the lysine.
My goal is to promote angiogenesis. There is ample evidence that both arginine and lysine do that. However, if there is a problem with taking both at the same time, I would drop lysine.

Louis
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