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Lolo
Posted: Sunday, February 07, 2010 12:10:58 PM
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Posts: 88
I am confused. I may very well have to devote tens of hours of study to ever understand this, but if someone has already done that and can provide a simple explanation to the non-scientific layperson (me), I'd love to get the benefit of that.

My assumption is that there are two goals. One is to protect as-yet-undamaged nerve cells. The other is to regenerate damaged nerve cells.

As for regeneration, is the extension of axons the only way we re-innervate muscles and get back lost motor function? If so, it seems like we still have a way to go to reach that goal. Dr. Viera writes that the transplanted motor neurons in the CSC collaboration "did not extend axons or innervate any muscle" and that the transplanted motor neurons in Kerr's group showed only a 2mm extension of axons.

What about the ongoing stem cell transplant efforts by the other groups -- Neuralstem, Brainstorm, etc.; are these aimed at regeneration or at protecting what we haven't already lost? If the former, what exactly is hoped for in terms of regeneration if not axonal growth, and how does that lead to regained motor function?

Thanks in advance for whatever insight can be shared.
RL Schafferr
Posted: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:52:39 PM
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ENV wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_junction

Gap junction, not neuromuscular junction.
Gap, junction, seems like the same thing to me , ENV..IT DID SOMETHING TO REGAIN FUNCTION..THATS ALL I NEED TO KNOW..I WANT IT..LOL.RON
RL Schafferr
Posted: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:59:43 PM
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Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 777
Location: United States
Lolo wrote:
I am confused. I may very well have to devote tens of hours of study to ever understand this, but if someone has already done that and can provide a simple explanation to the non-scientific layperson (me), I'd love to get the benefit of that.

My assumption is that there are two goals. One is to protect as-yet-undamaged nerve cells. The other is to regenerate damaged nerve cells.

As for regeneration, is the extension of axons the only way we re-innervate muscles and get back lost motor function? If so, it seems like we still have a way to go to reach that goal. Dr. Viera writes that the transplanted motor neurons in the CSC collaboration "did not extend axons or innervate any muscle" and that the transplanted motor neurons in Kerr's group showed only a 2mm extension of axons.

What about the ongoing stem cell transplant efforts by the other groups -- Neuralstem, Brainstorm, etc.; are these aimed at regeneration or at protecting what we haven't already lost? If the former, what exactly is hoped for in terms of regeneration if not axonal growth, and how does that lead to regained motor function?

Thanks in advance for whatever insight can be shared.
lolo,,I believe they are just trying to slow or maintain what we have..But you can bet your butt they are expecting more..They want a cure more than a band aid..
Let's hope we see both at Emory..I would like trials run all over..Especially the ones ALSYOYO posted in California..They are onto something better than Neuralstem, I hope..Ron
criscapelo
Posted: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:44:04 PM
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Joined: 9/15/2009
Posts: 61
Location: Spain
Wayne wrote:
Thanks again Dr. Vieira. I know that PALS look forward to the day that axons will regrow and connect to muscle but it seems that the trials and "treatments" that are currently underway are giving the impression that that is today's goal. With Dr. Kerr growing an axon 2mm, that seems like a start but just a start.

Although that would be the ultimate goal, rescuing unhealthy cells also seems worthwhile.



I think that Dr Vieira is talking about experiments made in 2007 and 2008. I don't know the date of the Douglas Kerr's group report, but I am so sure that we are now in 2010. This report was released a few days ago.

Cristina

Wayne
Posted: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:55:00 PM
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Cristina,

I had read that and it specifically says rescuing existing neurons through contact. That sounds great. However, that is NOT what I had posted. I specifically said grow axons and connect to muscles. That is the ultimate goal because it not only would save function but would add function that was previously lost.

Also a worthwhile goal but one that looks to be in the future, not the present. And what I'm annoyed about is that on some of the current stem cell "treatments" this very idea is being thrown around as realistic. PALS don't need false expectations on top of all our other troubles.
Lolo
Posted: Sunday, February 07, 2010 5:55:30 PM
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Posts: 88
Wayne wrote:
And what I'm annoyed about is that on some of the current stem cell "treatments" this very idea is being thrown around as realistic. PALS don't need false expectations on top of all our other troubles.


I guess that's an underlying additional question behind my prior post. With all the hoopla over stem cell transplants, it doesn't seem that regeneration (leading to recovered motor function) is as yet possible. So what exactly is the goal of the stem cell trials of Neuralstem, Brainstorm, etc.?

[think]
Wayne
Posted: Sunday, February 07, 2010 6:25:42 PM
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lolo,

In the article that ENV referenced about Neuralstem, there was a statement that stated the goal explicitly.

http://www.neuralstem.com/index.asp?pgid=43

"Our biggest hope for stem cells is to significantly slow the progression the disease," Bruijn said.

and:

"This is not a cure. We are not replacing those motor neurons [nerve cells which tell muscles to contract]. These stem cells don't generate motor neurons. Instead they protect the still-functioning motor neurons," Johe explained.


*************************************************************

As for Brainstorm, this article provides insight:


http://www.brainstorm-cell.com/

The Company is focused on developing NTF cells from the patient's own bone marrow in order to treat, Parkinson, ALS, and Spinal Cord Injury

The adult stem cells are used to create healthy NTF cells which produce and secrete neurotrophic factors, which are essential for the survival and outgrowth of neurons, and may become beneficial in neurodegenerative diseases. Patients treated with the Company’s NurOwn™ therapeutic cells are expected to enjoy a rapid recovery and much enhanced quality of life. BrainStorm's therapy has the potential to cure underlying pathology, rather than simply treat symptoms.


ENV
Posted: Sunday, February 07, 2010 6:47:53 PM

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Fuggit.

Here is the recent Stanford study.

Bear in mind this was done with very young animals (a few days old). Further experiments with fully adult animals is needed.

--
Le meilleur vin avec les meilleurs amis
Lolo
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 2:16:55 AM
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Joined: 11/3/2008
Posts: 88
Thank you, Wayne. And also Ron. I'm beginning to get my arms around this behemoth.
Big Mike
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 6:35:05 AM
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Location: Montana
I'll take "rescuing" the neurons we have over nothing anyday. Regeneration techniques will follow down the line.



Without hope there is nothing.
Big Mike
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 6:57:14 AM
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Joined: 2/7/2009
Posts: 486
Location: Montana
Wayne wrote:
lolo,

In the article that ENV referenced about Neuralstem, there was a statement that stated the goal explicitly.

http://www.neuralstem.com/index.asp?pgid=43

"Our biggest hope for stem cells is to significantly slow the progression the disease," Bruijn said.

and:

"This is not a cure. We are not replacing those motor neurons [nerve cells which tell muscles to contract]. These stem cells don't generate motor neurons. Instead they protect the still-functioning motor neurons," Johe explained.


*************************************************************


As for Brainstorm, this article provides insight:


http://www.brainstorm-cell.com/

The Company is focused on developing NTF cells from the patient's own bone marrow in order to treat, Parkinson, ALS, and Spinal Cord Injury

The adult stem cells are used to create healthy NTF cells which produce and secrete neurotrophic factors, which are essential for the survival and outgrowth of neurons, and may become beneficial in neurodegenerative diseases. Patients treated with the Company’s NurOwn™ therapeutic cells are expected to enjoy a rapid recovery and much enhanced quality of life. BrainStorm's therapy has the potential to cure underlying pathology, rather than simply treat symptoms.




Both Brainstorm and Neuralstem have used the word "cure" in their press releases and/or executive informational overviews. They are very careful in the context they use the word. Obviously, it carries a lot of weight in terms of promoting their products. This is somewhat misleading, admittedly, but it shouldn't detract from the real benefit their treatments may offer.


Without hope there is nothing.
Wayne
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 9:26:00 AM
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Yes Mike,

I am definitely not trying to detract from the potential. I consider these (Neuralstem and Brainstorm) clinical trials meaning experiments and that is part of the normal process. Whether it has the potential to slow or halt progression, thats a scientific question that an experiment is suppose to address.

My main points are that 1) they are not saying that they are going to regenerate neurons so people shouldn't expect that 2) other ongoing for-money stem cell experiments/clinics around the world ARE pushing this idea of regeneration.

In light of the goals of these two legitimate experiments and the animal studies that have been published, any clinic promising or implying regeneration seems extremely far-fetched to me.
RL Schafferr
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 2:07:26 PM
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I agree with Wayne..The other clinics, ie, Mexico, China, etc, are looking for suckers..We have a couple we can say are legit, but beware of them to a certain extent too. They aren't above a press release making a few questionable statements either..We have seen it before..
But I have hope this time..That's a first for me. lol..Ron
Big Mike
Posted: Monday, February 08, 2010 6:52:35 PM
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Location: Montana
Wayne wrote:
Yes Mike,

I am definitely not trying to detract from the potential. I consider these (Neuralstem and Brainstorm) clinical trials meaning experiments and that is part of the normal process. Whether it has the potential to slow or halt progression, thats a scientific question that an experiment is suppose to address.

My main points are that 1) they are not saying that they are going to regenerate neurons so people shouldn't expect that 2) other ongoing for-money stem cell experiments/clinics around the world ARE pushing this idea of regeneration.

In light of the goals of these two legitimate experiments and the animal studies that have been published, any clinic promising or implying regeneration seems extremely far-fetched to me.


Good points, Wayne. I agree with you, my point is that they all promote their products in such a way. But it's not right--they shouldn't be promoting the idea of regeneration when the technology is not there yet. As far as slowing or halting progression--and in the process possibly restoring a little mobility and ameliorating symptoms--well, that's what we're all hoping for.





Without hope there is nothing.
criscapelo
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 2:48:42 PM
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Location: Spain
I don’t totally understand:

“Investigators ……. have demonstrated in mouse models that transplanted stems cells, when in direct contact with diseased neurons, send signals through specialized channels that rescue the neurons from death.” (From this release)

Do they mean resuscitate cells? Dead cells becoming alive again? Or rather they mean to rescue threatened nerve cells before they die? Are in ALS motor neurons definitely dead or are they simply unfit?

Unsolved enigmas for one no scientific who understands better Spanish than English.

Cristina
Wayne
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 2:56:42 PM
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Cristina,

The sentence almost assuredly means that the neurons are still alive but just damaged. Rescued from death would mean preventing it from dying before it had died.

Wayne
RL Schafferr
Posted: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 3:00:39 PM
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Joined: 6/14/2009
Posts: 777
Location: United States
criscapelo wrote:
I don’t totally understand:

“Investigators ……. have demonstrated in mouse models that transplanted stems cells, when in direct contact with diseased neurons, send signals through specialized channels that rescue the neurons from death.” (From this release)

Do they mean resuscitate cells? Dead cells becoming alive again? Or rather they mean to rescue threatened nerve cells before they die? Are in ALS motor neurons definitely dead or are they simply unfit?

Unsolved enigmas for one no scientific who understands better Spanish than English.

Cristina
They resuscitate the neurons, so to speak, and regain or save SOME function.And I believe they re channel the signals somewhat..So that some function either remains, or the neuron regains some of it's abilities..
That's the way I read it.That's what HAD to happen for the mice to regain some function...Ron [clap] [whistle] [Angle_Smilies]
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