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Oral Sodium Chlorite
HappyPhysicist
Posted: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 9:31:07 AM
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Mike,

Thanks so much for that analysis. I admit I have never heard of this "complex" phenomena in chemistry, but then again I didn't take it beyond my first year in college. What sort of bond is this? Also, can this state persist if TCDO is diluted in water? Wouldn't the added water just jumble everything up again into an ionic soup?

Thanks,

Ben


If it is done in secret, it is done in vain.
SilverFox
Posted: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 10:33:10 AM
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Hello Entity,

I don't believe any long term side effects have been observed from a single exposure of chlorite. The body seems to recover in a few hours, and that follows what you are experiencing.

Another thing that could be influencing this is that I believe WF-10 has a higher pH than NP001. The pH difference between the saline solution with the WF-10 in it and your blood could cause the reaction you are experiencing.

I didn't mean to blow you out of the water. I am just very cautious. These chemicals are strong oxidizers and they haven't been well studied in the body. When I hear of adverse effects, I prefer to err on the side of caution. With that said, I still believe that if you experience adverse effects you are taking too much and need to adjust.

Tom
HappyPhysicist
Posted: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 1:38:03 PM
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Mike,

This is one of my posts from a while back:


He
Quote:
re is a list of impurities I get for MMS, which is the same thing as Keavy's 5% soution, just a different concentration and both are made from powdered sodium chlorite:

http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1137977

To summarize:

Powdered Sodium Chlorite:

Sodium Chlorite (NaClO2) 81.1%
Sodium Chloride (NaCl) 8.3%
Sodium Carbonate (Na2CO3) 6.4%
Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH) 0.07%
Sodium Chlorate (NaClo3) 0.0%
Sodium Sulfate (Na2SO4) 3.9%
Humidity (H20) 0.24%

Liquid Sodium Chlorite:

~ 72% distilled water (H2O)
~ 22.4% sodium chlorite (NaClO2)
< 5.32% sodium chloride (NaCl - table salt )
< 0.28% sodium hydroxide (NaOH - lye)
< 0.28% sodium chlorate (NaClO3)


WF10

~ 91.7% distilled water (H2O)
- 4.2% sodium chlorite (NaClO2)
- 1.9% sodium chloride (NaCl - table salt )
- 1.5% sodium chlorate (NaClO3)
- 0.7% sodium sulfate NaSO4

Now the percentages are all out of whack because the powdered does not include water and I am not sure if the WF10 percentages count the sodium ions or not. I can renormalize them in a later post. For now all that is important is what is in the liquid sodium chlorite.

So now the question is what happened to:

Sodium Carbonate (Na2CO3) 6.4%
Sodium Sulfate (Na2SO4) 3.9%

after mixing with water? Perhaps the levels are reduced to belew 0.05 % since they only list 1 decimal point?

But we don't care about Sodium Sulfate (Na2SO4) because that is in WF10 anyway, which doesn't seem to be a problem for the thousands of people who have taken WF10 for other illnesses.

So now the question is: Is a certain amount of sodium hydroxide injected into the blood harmful?

How much? at the ratio of 0.28/22.4 = 1/80, a typical dose of sodium chlorite might be as much as 200 mg for a 200lb+ person, which would be 2.5 mg of sodium hydroxide.


PM me and I will email you a scan of the information sheet that comes with every vial of WF10.

Thanks,

Ben


If it is done in secret, it is done in vain.
HappyPhysicist
Posted: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 1:47:27 PM
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Chemister wrote:

Regarding the presence of counter ions like sodium: the name "TCDO" refers only to the anionic form. While counter ions would certainly be included in WF10 to balance the charge on TCDO, there is no prima facie reason why those ions must be sodium, as opposed to potassium or calcium, in order for TCDO to display the same biological activity. This is analogous to the way that we use "chlorite" to refer only to the ion, even though it may actually exist in solution as sodium chlorite.


I know what you are saying here but the "anionic form" is a physical impossibility. You simply cannot have a solution consisting of only one type of ion, so I see no reason to identify a substance, that is available for purchase, by its anionic form. It behooves the manufacturer to be specific.

In the WF10 information sheet is specifically states that Na+ is the cation, therefore TCDO is surely sold with Na+ as the cation. Well, in that case lets call a spade a spade, i.e., TCDO is a mixture of water, oxygen and sodium chlorite. A great quote from a Monty Python skit "We didn't include that information because it affected the sales of our product."



If it is done in secret, it is done in vain.
Entity
Posted: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 3:50:11 PM
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Hi Louis,

I took 500 mg of Niacin as per your wife's regimen and I got extreme redness in my ears,face and body, itchiness and felt like I was burning up. My nose also felt stuffy. Did your wife have the same reaction? Has anyone else on the forum experienced this with Niacin?

Thanks.
ichisan
Posted: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 4:08:10 PM
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Entity wrote:
Hi Louis,

I took 500 mg of Niacin as per your wife's regimen and I got extreme redness in my ears,face and body, itchiness and felt like I was burning up. My nose also felt stuffy. Did your wife have the same reaction? Has anyone else on the forum experienced this with Niacin?

Thanks.
This is a normal reaction to niacin. My wife gets around this problem by taking half the dose at a time with some food. You can buy slow-release niacin but I don't know whether that's a good idea. Nemesis is the expert on niacin on this forum. Maybe he can offer some advice.

Louis
SilverFox
Posted: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 4:53:07 PM
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Hello Entity,

Do a search on the web for "niacin flush."

I take niacin daily. Sometimes I experience the flush, other times I don't. If the flush is uncomfortable, reduce the amount you are taking.

Tom
Nemesis
Posted: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 5:28:06 PM

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Thanks Chemister for a thoughful and in-depth semi-empirical analysis.

When seeing a posting like that I am completely awestruck by getting a glimpse of the true potential of the kind of distibuted, web-enabled, collaborative, thinking that I would like to imagine that humankind will be capable of in the future, but I also have to refrain from becoming frustrated and sentimental by the thought that I'll be dead well before then.

BTW, there's also a potentially important reaction formula involving chlorite and NAD in the archives that I have almost have managed to balance..


Don't just ask what scientists can do to speed up the solution for ALS or when they will do it, instead ask yourself what you can do right now to solve ALS asap.
Chemister
Posted: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 2:27:09 PM
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HappyPhysicist wrote:
Thanks so much for that analysis. I admit I have never heard of this "complex" phenomena in chemistry, but then again I didn't take it beyond my first year in college. What sort of bond is this? Also, can this state persist if TCDO is diluted in water? Wouldn't the added water just jumble everything up again into an ionic soup?

Complexes often form in situations where individual molecules are relatively electron-deficient when taken by themselves. Perhaps the best example of this occurs in Borane. Such complexes are not necessarily held together by bonding interactions alone. Two different molecules with compatible shapes can also form inclusion compounds, often in very unexpected and unusual ways. (Cyclodextrin is the compound used in products like Febreeze to "trap in" odors.)

Now, this isn't to say that my previous description for the TCDO complex is in any way accurate, mind you. My "cluster bomb" analogy is really just a cartoonish image I've created in my head to visualize the action of the complex (I'm a very visual learner). In fact, judging from the WF10 patent filing, it would seem that even the creators couldn't figure out what the TCDO complex actually looked like -- but they nevertheless provided spectroscopic evidence of the existence of such a complex.

Many such complexes do indeed dissolve back into their constituent molecules when placed in water, but this is not necessarily the case. Chelate complexes are often very stable in water, and there are even some complexes (like those involving soap) that form because of the influence of the surrounding water. In addition, a complex that happened to be stable in neutral water may still readily dissociate when exposed to highly acidic or basic conditions. Indeed, in the case of ingesting WF10, I'd suspect that the stomach acid probably breaks down the TCDO complex into its constituent chlorite molecules, and if so it would render WF10 no more or less effective than OSC. Much of WF10's advantage over OSC, then, would lie in its ability to be administered intravenously.


HappyPhysicist wrote:
I know what you are saying here but the "anionic form" is a physical impossibility. You simply cannot have a solution consisting of only one type of ion, so I see no reason to identify a substance, that is available for purchase, by its anionic form. It behooves the manufacturer to be specific.

I absolutely agree. Describing a specific product being sold as only consisting of "TCDO" is sloppy at best, and dangerous at worst. Someone who has high blood pressure or similar problems needs to know whether or not the medication being injected into his or her veins contains sodium vs. potassium ions. Referring to "TCDO" alone would only be appropriate when discussing, for example, its mode of action or therapeutic effects, or when talking about the physical structure of the TCDO complex itself.

Interesting fact: physically speaking, it is an absolutely imperative feature of all matter on Earth that the positive and negative charges EXACTLY cancel one another out. If there were even a 0.00000001% overall imbalance in the charges of particles, the resulting electromagnetic repulsion would be enough to cause potatoes to spontaneously explode.

Mike


"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." - Isaac Newton
Chemister
Posted: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 3:02:33 PM
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Thanks, Nem. What I've found to be most amazing about these forums thus far is the ability of patients to identify common side effects, formulate solutions, test them, and confirm their general efficacy all in a matter of days, when it would take researchers weeks or even months to generate the same knowledge.

Entity wrote:
I took 500 mg of Niacin as per your wife's regimen and I got extreme redness in my ears,face and body, itchiness and felt like I was burning up. My nose also felt stuffy. Did your wife have the same reaction? Has anyone else on the forum experienced this with Niacin?

Actually, the show Workaholics portrayed this exact thing, quite hilariously too in my opinion. (That's the only video I could find of it, but if you watch the whole episode on Netflix or another site there's even more stuff about niacin in it.)

Mike


"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." - Isaac Newton
lab867
Posted: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 11:41:21 PM
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Entity wrote:
Hi Louis,

I took 500 mg of Niacin as per your wife's regimen and I got extreme redness in my ears,face and body, itchiness and felt like I was burning up. My nose also felt stuffy. Did your wife have the same reaction? Has anyone else on the forum experienced this with Niacin?

Thanks.


If I recall Louis' list correctly he listed Niacinamide, which does not cause flushing or lower cholesterol like plain niacin does.

Wikipedia: Nicotinamide, also known as niacinamide and nicotinic acid amide, is the amide of nicotinic acid (vitamin B3 / niacin). Nicotinamide is a water-soluble vitamin and is part of the vitamin B group. Nicotinic acid, also known as niacin, is converted to nicotinamide in vivo, and, though the two are identical in their vitamin functions, nicotinamide does not have the same pharmacologic and toxic effects of niacin, which occur incidental to niacin's conversion. Thus nicotinamide does not reduce cholesterol or cause flushing,[1] although nicotinamide may be toxic to the liver at doses exceeding 3 g/day for adults.[2] In cells, niacin is incorporated into nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD) and nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate (NADP), although the pathways for nicotinamide and nicotinic acid are very similar. NAD+ and NADP+ are coenzymes in a wide variety of enzymatic oxidation-reduction reactions.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotinamide
Entity
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2012 8:51:24 AM
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lab867 wrote:


If I recall Louis' list correctly he listed Niacinamide, which does not cause flushing or lower cholesterol like plain niacin does.



Actually, no, Louis' list specifically said Niacin. Se first post here:

http://www.als.net/forum/yaf_postst49413p185_Oral-Sodium-Chlorite.aspx

lab867
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2012 3:39:58 PM
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Entity wrote:


Actually, no, Louis' list specifically said Niacin. Se first post here:

http://www.als.net/forum/yaf_postst49413p185_Oral-Sodium-Chlorite.aspx


"
I was referring to his post of Friday, June 01, 2012 3:17:00 PM on the "Front Page" thread which I thought was the most current regimen:


"OK, here's my wife's current regimen:

L-Lysine, 1000 mg
L-Arginine, 1000 mg
Acetyl-L-Carnitine, 1000 mg
L-Taurine, 1000 mg
L-Glutamine, 1000 mg
Niacinamide, 1000 mg
Choline, 1000 mg"
ichisan
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2012 4:43:15 PM
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lab867,

You're right. She's currently taking niacinamide not niacin. She used to take niacin in the beginning but I changed it a few weeks ago to niacinamide after re-reading some of Nemesis's arguments.

Louis

PS. She's approaching almost five months without progression and with noticeable gradual improvements in her breathing ability. Also, she regained some function in her right foot.
Entity
Posted: Monday, June 11, 2012 11:54:12 AM
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Does anyone know if there is a minimum time required between sodium chlorite infusions? I had a WF10 infusion last night and am planning the next one after 12 hours. Does anyone see an issue with taking a second dose after 12 hours or do I need to wait 24 hours for the next one?
sceptic
Posted: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:38:56 PM
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Entity, you are steering into uncharted territory. As best I can tell, neither the WF-10 or NP001 trials had infusions more frequently than once a day.

Be careful.
millstones
Posted: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:45:41 PM

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I would send a pm to spider or Happy physicist. They were both taking wf10 so may be able to give guidance.

John
HappyPhysicist
Posted: Monday, June 11, 2012 12:56:54 PM
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Entity wrote:
Does anyone know if there is a minimum time required between sodium chlorite infusions? I had a WF10 infusion last night and am planning the next one after 12 hours. Does anyone see an issue with taking a second dose after 12 hours or do I need to wait 24 hours for the next one?


Entity,

Nah, you should be fine as long as you don't currently experience any side effects with WF10. For instance I have no side effects whatsoever but others feel extreme fatigue.

Ben


If it is done in secret, it is done in vain.
Entity
Posted: Monday, June 11, 2012 1:02:15 PM
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Thanks Ben et al for your feedback. Much appreciated.
SilverFox
Posted: Monday, June 11, 2012 2:11:16 PM
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Hello Entity,

The time between infusions is not the issue. The issue is the amount of chemical in the body.

Working with the very shaky information that chlorite has a half life in the body of animals of around 40+ hours, it looks like you could take 4 infusions 12 hours apart and still be OK.

However, you are approaching the chlorite levels where some adverse effects were observed in animal testing.

Bottom line is that I don't know.

Best guess is that I think you should be OK.

Tom
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